This interview has been slightly edited for clarity.

Hello, dear listeners. I'm Scott Faris and I'm hosting this episode of Rough Cut. Joining me today is a very special individual documentary filmmaker Meg Griffiths. Meg is an award-winning producer and director responsible for dozens of short docs for some of the biggest names in philanthropy. She debuted her first feature documentary Impossible Town last year, and since 2017, she has run her LA based nonfiction production company Universe Creative with a real rap scallion of a business partner, so I hear. Would you say that's accurate, Meg?

Definitely.

So full transparency for listeners, Meg and I have worked together for over 10 years at this point, but I don't believe we've ever had a conversation quite like this one. So, I'm very much looking forward to picking her brain today to try to figure out exactly what it is we do and how we do it. I want to get into your background, Meg, but first a little bit about what you do according to your website, you run a “documentary production company driven by social impact.” I know the term production company these days can refer to organizations of any manner, mode, and size. So, what kind of production company is Universe Creative and what does that look like day to day?

Universe Creative is a production company dedicated to social impact storytelling. Our production company is you and me. There are just two of us, and we primarily specialize in short form documentary content that we create in partnership with foundations, nonprofits, socially conscious brands. And as you mentioned at the top, we also just completed and premiered our first feature length documentary. So it really does run the gamut. When we say social impact, I mean I feel like we define that actually pretty broadly. We think about the partners that we're working with, what their commitment is to the world, how they leverage storytelling and our opportunity to lift up voices of people that normally wouldn't get a platform and that are generally doing some good in the world, adding some value to the world. So we define it pretty broadly.

Yeah, that makes sense. Thanks for that. I know you co-founded Universe Creative in 2017 with me, your co-founder, but your training was actually as a photojournalist at the University of Texas in Austin. So how do you describe the path that you've taken from that initial training to your present-day work?

Yeah, I mean if you had asked me 20 years ago, “what would you be doing?,” I would've never guessed this. From the time that I was a kid, I saw myself primarily as a photojournalist. That was my big dream. And so I did go to the University of Texas, I pursued a master's degree in journalism. I went on to work at the Houston Chronicle. It was an interesting time in the newspaper business, and I'm about to I guess out myself as an older person, but at the time newspapers were just going online. And so very quickly I was handed a video camera, and I think the first camera I had was a Sony PD 150, and this was before a lot of the DSLRs that are out now that can shoot photo and video. And so I was sent into the field with a still camera and a video camera and covered news all across the Gulf Coast.

And it was an amazing training ground, it was basically trial by fire. This is how you do video work, and it was fun, it was exciting, and it was really hard work. I eventually decided to leave the newspaper industry, which we can talk more about why I decided to do that, but I transitioned into nonprofit. I took a job at Teach for America, which is an educational nonprofit that sends new teachers into the field all across the country. I was creating products to help train teachers so that they could do their best work, and eventually I realized that there was a huge opportunity for storytelling both within and outside of the organization. And so over the course of several years, I built an internal video studio, enter you Scott. I met Scott as I was looking to build out my team.

We didn't have any former teachers on the team, and when I met you, I was just so impressed by the fact that you had an incredible sensibility around storytelling and you were really funny, but you'd also been a teacher, so you had that lived experience. And so we worked there for several years creating what was branded [content] essentially. I don't think that that term had even really come about, but we were making entertaining content for our viewers and we were traveling all across the country to tell those stories of impact. We did that for about five or six years, and then there was an opportunity to go over to a advertising agency here in Los Angeles, a small content marketing firm, and I was excited about the opportunity to work on bigger scale projects, to work across different strands of business. And so I took a leadership role at this content marketing agency and convinced you to come with me.

So you were hired as a video producer, head of production there, and we continued to work together there. I think almost immediately we realized that the opportunity to tell stories in the social impact space were diminished. We were working for big brands and we were learning a lot, but I think we both felt like there was a lack of passion and energy and enthusiasm when we weren't working with organizations like foundations and nonprofits that were adding some value to the world through the work that they were doing. And so I don't remember if you said it first or I said it first, but we said, what if we went out on our own and just tried to build something ourselves that was focused specifically on social impact video storytelling, could we do it? And we were lucky that the organization that we were at the time was small enough that we kind of had an insight into what it looked like to do business development, to write proposals, to draft budgets, to run a team, all the things that we hadn't really been responsible for in our prior jobs when we were in-house and when I was a journalist.

And so we said, you know what? Let's try it. Let's do it. Let's step out and if it doesn't work, we can go get other jobs, but let's see what happens. So that's how we got to where we are today.

Yeah, that's brilliant and I'm so glad you proactively broached this idea of what it means to start and then maintain a sustainable production company. I want to dig a little more deeply into that, and I want to start by asking why a production company? Why not just operate as a freelancer or a freelance partnership? What was the significance of starting your own company? Why did you decide to do that?

Well, I think there are practical reasons and psychological reasons. So on the practical side, I think having worked in-house and in an agency, I had been on both sides of the business development partnership or relationship. And I think that I just noticed how I felt when I was approached by what I would call a vendor partner. And I felt like it felt like there was in some ways almost more legitimacy if we could walk in as a company. I think the word company means a lot of different things to different people. But I do think when I sat in a position where I was either selling services or hiring people, it felt like there was more infrastructure associated with the idea of a company. And so I think that in some ways it was kind of psychological trying to position ourselves not just as two individuals that are experts at doing a certain kind of work, but that we had infrastructure and support behind the work that we were doing, which is essentially what we created when we started the business.

And I think also for us psychologically, it was easier to walk into a room with a little bit more swagger and say, we run a production company. This is what we do. It is just the two of us, but we have all these capabilities and capacities. It felt like calling ourselves a production company allowed us to walk into rooms at some of the largest foundations in the world and sell our services that way. And I think over the years, where in the first six months maybe it didn't feel like a production company, it very much has evolved into that.

And what you're describing isn't just semantic, there are also certain financial and logistical advantages. Are there not?

Absolutely. And I'm glad you raised that. I mean, I think that one of the first things that we did was we actually created a business plan and we set goals for ourselves and we set up an LLC and we got an accountant and we got a lawyer. And I think that over the years as we've run into tricky situations in production or with clients, what we've learned is that having that infrastructure behind us has allowed us to operate much more seamlessly. And there are financial benefits to having the company set up that way. So I feel like in terms of just having protections around the work that we do, there's no question that it's advantageous.

Yeah. I know that you've mentioned several times that the focus of Universe Creative’s work is social impact storytelling. Has that social impact focus always been a part of the ethos and culture of the company? And if so, why? Wasn't there a concern that that might just limit the amount of work that we were able to take on?

I mean, I think the why and how it's impacted us are two questions. So to answer the first, the why, I mean, I think that for us in our careers generally, I mean you started as a teacher, Scott, and I started as a journalist. I think that we've both had a desire to leverage storytelling as a tool to make the world better at a really high level and in different ways. I think you were doing that with your students in a certain way. I was doing that as a journalist, and then we were certainly doing that together at Teach for America. And I think the experience of working at the agency was valuable because we saw what it looked like when we got too far afield from that idea. And we just saw that we weren't doing our best work. It wasn't what fueled us and excited us.

I think for us, we do our best work when we're partnered to create things that add value to the world. I think from a practical perspective in terms of building the company and how it's been beneficial to us, I would say that. And it's interesting, I feel like we've talked to a lot of people over the past many years that have decided to leave an organization and go out on their own. And I think that what I have noticed is that oftentimes, especially I think former journalists who are accustomed to telling stories in a lot of different realms, and you're kind of a jack of all trades. It can I think, feel like it's probably more strategic to broaden your focus. But counterintuitively, it's helpful to have a calling card around the kind of work that you're passionate about. You want to be putting out the kind of work that you want to be hired to make.

And I think it's easier in some ways to build those networks and relationships and to have that calling card if you have a clarity of vision around the kind of work you want to make. And for us, that's been social impact storytelling, primarily in short form. And so I think it's been easier for us to get referrals because people know what we do and how it works. And so there's never a question of like, well, would this be a good project for Meg and Scott? Because people say if we're doing this kind of work, we know that they have a proven track record, they have a process for doing it, and we have seen record of success in the work that they do. So I think it's actually really helped us, and it hasn't been limiting because I also think we have defined that term social impact pretty broadly.

Well, speaking of those crucial connections and the network building component, how did you get work in those tenuous first months of running Universe Creative?

I mean, we really leaned on our networks. We were lucky to have worked with so many incredible people in the many years before we started Universe Creative, who left Teach for America and left the agency and left journalism to go on and run incredible organizations themselves. And so leaning into those networks I think was the thing that helped us the most. We did go after new clients and new partners in those early days, and we still do, obviously that's a critical piece of business development. But I think that we tried to think really critically about how we wanted to talk about who we were and what we did and how it worked. And again, I feel like I just think about those early days when we were setting our vision and writing our business plan. We could come to a new client and say, this is who we are, this is what we make, this is how much it costs, and this is how we're going to do it.

And even though some of those elements have shifted over the years, I feel like it's always helpful to walk into any collaboration with an idea and a vision for how you want it to play out and what role you want to play in it. So even though obviously we had insecurities, I think in those early years, I think we tried to walk into the room with as much confidence as we could. And I think so much of that came from our prior working relationship. I mean, it's hard for me to imagine having done this without you, and I think so much, and how impressed I am, about so many of the other freelancers out there that do go this alone. I think it's hard. I feel like we've benefited so much from being able to lean on each other, and I always feel confident walking into a room because I know that you have my back even in those early days when sometimes we were making things up as we went along.

Thank you for the kind words on that topic of the importance of collaboration. I mean, it will come as a surprise to no one listening to this podcast that filmmaking is a deeply collaborative act. What do you look for in key collaborators? What characteristics are likely to cause you to work again and again with the same folks?

I mean, this probably sounds woo woo, but I do feel like having a shared connection and perspective around the kind of work that you're making, I find that we end up working more regularly with folks that care about adding value to the world, that want to do something good, that want to change something. And I think that shows up in the work, too. We travel a lot for production, and so we're often hiring local crews, and I always say, no a-holes on set. Be good at your job, but be nice and be willing to be all hands on deck. I think with doc work, it's totally necessary. We run with small crews, we're often collaborating with subjects or participants that have never been on camera before. So setting that tone for the work is I think really critical. So obviously we want to work with skilled people that have experience, but I would say when I am hiring folks or working with folks again and again, it's often about what is the energy that you're bringing to this collaboration, and how much do you value the thing that we're actually making together?

And I think that in some ways how we started our business, it was okay that we didn't always know all the technical answers, but we had confidence in each other to make good decisions because we were supporting each other. So I think that that piece of it for me is probably the most important thing. I think about when we hired our editor for Impossible Town, Scott, you edit most of our work, so it's pretty rare that we'll bring in someone at that level, but there was just so much to do. And we probably interviewed 20 different really storied editors all across the country. And we actually ended up hiring somebody that I would say had probably less movie titles under his belt. He had done some, but not as much as some of the other folks we'd talked to. And I think what drew us to him was his interest in what we were making, his connection to the story, and he was a nice guy and we continue to work with him today. So I feel like that's a great example of what I'm trying to describe.

I feel like we've repeated this often, but there's something to be said for being able to imagine yourself sitting in a room for hours on end with a key collaborator and enjoying that time in addition to accomplishing whatever it is that you set out to accomplish. I want to emphasize this topic a little bit more because I know that this is often a source of disagreement between the two of us. I can sometimes become obsessed with the technical components of the filmmaking process, and you are often gently reminding me that it's actually the values piece and the relationships piece that are of utmost importance. I think history has proven that you are correct, but for a lot of folks like myself that seems counterintuitive. Why are values and relationships more important often than technical competence?

I mean, I think especially in a lane like documentary storytelling, in filmmaking so much can go wrong. One of my closest friends who's a big producer in Hollywood always says, "Producing is problems." So you're going to run into problems, you're going to break equipment, you're going to miss a flight, you're going to get rained on. Those things are going to happen, but the people that you decide to work alongside determine whether or not those experiences can still be positive ones. And I think that shows up in the work. I often think that we're able to make things that move people or at least feel reflective of our subjects experiences because we're all enjoying the work that we're doing together and we value it. I think it shows up in the work. So yeah, I will continue to prioritize this. And when I think about why I started the company with you specifically, it was because I knew we had shared values. And so we rarely argue over what we're making. We argue a lot about the how, and I feel like those are better arguments to have.

I like this idea that the filmmaking process will never be without arguments, but that we should seek to have better arguments. What are the arguments that are worth having and how can we have those arguments better?

Absolutely. I mean, I think tone on set is a real thing.

Yeah. Now room tone, or are you talking about something else?

All of it.

I'm kidding. I know what you're referring to. And obviously when I say technical competence, there is a baseline competence that is just necessary from everyone on set, but I think it would necessitate probably less experience than most people assume, especially when they're starting out in their career and they're feeling a lot of insecurity about maybe their infield experience. I mean, can you tell me a little bit about what you're looking for when you're bringing a crew member onto set? First of all, what is the ideal composition and size of crews when you're working in the field producing documentary, and how do you find those people?

Yeah, I mean, I would say our sweet spot is somewhere between four and five people, and that includes you. And I mean, typically when we're on set creating a short form doc, you and I are often co-directing or you're directing and I'm producing, and then we'll bring on a sound recordist and an AC. I would say that as a typical setup for us. If we're doing a lot of company moves or we're in a really complicated location, like university campuses are the worst, we'll bring on an additional PA. But I think what we have found is that especially in doc, if you're shooting, you're directing. And you and I, I think, have a telepathic connection. So when you're shooting, I feel like we're talking at the same time, but I've just found that that allows us to not miss moments and be in tune with our subject.

And again, I mean, oftentimes we're working with folks that have never been on camera before. So really creating that tone of intimacy and connection on set is what is most important. And oftentimes we're working in places where people aren't used to having cameras around even on the street. And so we have to be thinking about just the footprint of what we're doing. I think that that is really important to us. And usually, like I said, we're usually traveling, and so again, this is another way in which relationships are so necessary. But when we first started the company, I would use Staff Me Up a lot or Mandy.com. And really what's been beautiful is over the years we've built this incredible network all across the US where we can get access to incredible crew who are really nice people. So typically it's through the relationships that we've built over the years, where I can say we're in the middle of nowhere, Michigan, who do I know that's from there, has made a doc there, or has a connection there that can connect me to a great sound recordist. And that has, I would say, without fail really served us. We've never had to fire somebody on set. And I would say 99% of the time, everyone is super wonderful, happy to be there and really goes above and beyond whatever their defined role is on set.

Let's talk for a moment about the role that process plays in the work that you do at Universe Creative. How do you define process and where do processes come into play with your work?

That is one of my favorite questions because I'm a producer, so even though I consider myself a creative producer and director, I feel like my mind really likes to organize things. So again, I think back to the business plan we created, which was our original process. But we forced ourself to really think about the production process and how we could translate that for our clients and help them understand that the process was totally necessary to making something that is a short film, something that is ultimately a piece of art, or it's a creative output. And I think especially when you're working with clients that have never actually made a film or a video themselves, the process is actually really comforting.

And the first place I learned this was when we worked at Teach for America, we had to work within a giant bureaucracy where there was a lot of content flowing through, and there wasn't really a process when I first got there around how do we define our goals for this? Who are our audience? Who is the audience for this piece of content? Where's it going to be distributed? How much time do we have to make it? Who's going to be involved in the decision making process? There was no formal process for answering any of these questions. Often we were just deployed into the field, and then what happened was we would come back and there would be a misalignment of expectations of what the final product would be, and then you've wasted a ton enough time and money and people are sad. So what I did at Teach for America was actually create a process within the organization by which people could come to our team and say, here are the projects we're prioritizing. Here are the things we're hoping to accomplish. And I think that it really set us up for success as a team to execute at the highest level and create something that was actually needed and wanted by our clients who were in-house, but still.

So it was a great training ground for understanding how to better talk to people that don't work directly in filmmaking or in creative services. And I feel like that process that we created all of these many years ago still serves us today. And I'm just thinking, this week we had a referral, a new client. I took one meeting with the client and I basically explained our process for how we collaborate with clients and work through the stages of production. And she called me back and hired us, and she said, part of the reason that I wanted to hire you guys, I mean, I love your work samples, but I feel like I'm in good hands because you have such a clear process. And when we send out our proposals to new clients, we put the process in the proposal, it's part of the contract, and the process has served us, it's served our clients. And I think it just minimizes the opportunity for misunderstanding or misalignment through the process. Because the worst thing that can happen is you make something and then the folks that you are collaborating with, whether it be your participants or your clients or your other partners say, I didn't think that's what we were making together. So it's the process serves the final product in so many different ways.

Yet another example of a component that trumps the kind of technical excellence or aesthetic beauty that I so often find myself preoccupied with. So yes, we're all trying to make beautiful things, but let this podcast be a reminder that clarity of communication, intentionality of process, and an investment in relationships based on shared values are just as important, if not more. I've been in many conversations with filmmakers who have expressed a certain degree of frustration with difficult clients despite best laid plans. So what do you do when things go awry despite this emphasis on relationships and values and clearly communicated processes?

Yeah, I would say that the biggest challenge that I find in my work as a producer and as our client lead is when the client expectations are in tension with the creative. I feel like in some ways that is the thing that I'm always trying to avoid. How can we communicate more clearly via our processes, our deliverables, to help the client or partner understand what we're ultimately trying to achieve creatively? And it's about creating a runway so that we can be unleashed to do that once we're in the field and in post-production, that's what half of the process is. So when those things are in tension, that is I think when the job is the hardest. And I think we push really hard. I think if you talk to our partners, they will say that there are a lot of non-negotiables for Meg and Scott when it comes to the creative, and also to protecting the integrity of the story as it's been promised to our participants. So I feel like obviously I don't have a hundred percent batting average on this. I hope that was the right sports analogy, I don't know.

It was a slam dunk, Meg.

Okay, good.

Home run.

Yeah, I think that it doesn't always work, but I feel like trying to center the partner around what we've agreed to make, and trying to get that runway of trust to do it, is the hardest thing and the most important thing, and again, that is relationships. I think that most of the people that we end up collaborating with came to us because they trust us to do something. And so I think leaning into that, being willing to push back even when it feels scary, and also knowing when to say, ultimately, this might be a sword I'm not going to die on. It's not worth it for the long term viability of this relationship or this project. So those are difficult conversations. And I think that, again, this is another way in which I'm grateful for our partnership because I feel like we can keep each other in check. “I'm freaking out about this. Is this a big deal or not? How should we handle it?” So I think for the folks out there that do work independently, even having other producers or directors that you can lean on for support, and just like reality check, is super critical in this work.

Well, along that notion of support, you've been at this running Universe Creative for over eight years now. So what do you think has contributed to the longevity of your work? How do you make it sustainable?

I mean, I feel like one of the biggest pieces of this, and again, this is another way in which Impossible Town was another education. When we started making that film, which was in the early days of the company, it was in year two or year three, I joined a group here that supports female documentary filmmakers, like indie doc filmmakers, all women, and we would not have made the film had I not had that network. I mean, because I could just go and ask all the dumb questions, just things that I'd never done before, legal questions, technical questions, questions about grants, questions about executive producers, just things that we hadn't really encountered in our more client driven branded content work. And I feel like also in turn, I was able to offer guidance around business development and budgets and proposals and things that some of the other women in the network were working on.

And so there was a real back and forth, and I think VC operates in this way too. It's like the fact that there's a Slack channel where you can just go on and be like, “I don't know what I'm doing. Can anyone help?” I mean, it's an incredible resource. So when I'm talking to folks that are making their first feature or just trying to break into this world, I'm always like find your people, find your network, find the people you can call when you don't know what to do next, because I think the death knell is not having that phone a friend. You have to have people that have your back where you can be vulnerable. That has been really critical in our work.

Phone a friend, critical, poll the audience maybe slightly less important, would you say?

Yeah. Less important, though helpful too.

Sometimes helpful as well.

Yeah.

What has been your approach to what I would describe as an occasionally erratic cadence of incoming work in both times of feast and famine?

Yeah, I mean, man, the last four years have been rough for everyone. So much uncertainty globally. And then even within our industry, this might sounds strange, but I still think about the original promise of what we decided to build. And I think we went into it pretty fearlessly saying, if it doesn't work, then we'll go find jobs. And I still tell myself that. I'm like, all I can do is step out on the ledge, take a risk, do my best work, and assume that more work is going to come in even when it feels scary or it feels like maybe we don't have a lead or something didn't go the way that we want. I remind myself that it's more important to do my best work and keep talking to people and keep building the network. And I think that sense of not operating from a place of fear has really, really, really benefited us and the company because we're not making concessions.

I always remember that year one for us was actually really busy, but we weren't doing the work that I think we wanted to do. It was all social impact, but some of it was, I think some of the storytelling opportunities were not as deep as the ones we have today. And so in year two, we had a whiteboard in our office that said, this is the year of no. And so we practiced saying no to people. And I actually think that was really important for us because it meant that we were making the kind of work that we wanted to get hired to make and wanted to have the opportunity to make. Impossible Town came from that, I don't think we would've made the feature. So I think being really busy is great, but also being busy to what end, and how is it actually furthering your career and pushing you towards the kind of work that you want to be known for making, so that you can have those opportunities. And so I think that that is counterintuitive, but I see all these ideas as really connected. This idea that you have to create space to be the thing you want to be, that you have to advocate for yourself from a place of confidence knowing that you are capable and that you will learn along the way. And that operating from a place of fear doesn't help anybody.

And the truth is, anyone that's part of VC or that's doing this work, we're hardworking, we're smart, we're going to figure something out. So I think it's better to dream big and say, this is the thing that I want to do, and it's okay if it doesn't come to me right away, and if it doesn't happen, there's going to be other ideas and opportunities to pursue.

As a closing thought, I know as we mentioned earlier that new filmmakers typically lament their lack of experience in the field or their lack of experience with the equipment they view as necessary for doing this work. What would you say have been some of your most valuable formative experiences as a storyteller?

I mean, I feel like in filmmaking, trial by fire is the thing. I mean, it's interesting. I went to graduate school for photojournalism. I took my first documentary video class there, and I think that academic knowledge did give me a sense of confidence when I went out to apply for jobs. But there's nothing that replaces just doing it. And I feel like that about the feature too. It's just like you just got to put yourself in a situation where you're doing it. And I mean, maybe it's just me, but I learn by failing because when you fail hard, you remember that and you come up with new ways of doing things. My mom used to say this to me a lot, but sometimes a negative example is much more powerful than a positive one. So I think just again, not being afraid to fail.

If you are in the field and you didn't have the tools that you needed, next time you're going to have them. I always feel so grateful when I think about myself as a cub reporter, learning how to shoot video. The TV news guys taught me everything. Those guys have seen everything. They're putting out six spots a day, and I would show up and I'd be like, I don't have the right cord, or I don't know how to manage these filters. And they always had an answer. So I think it's a combination of putting yourself in a situation where you're going to learn, even if you don't do it right the first time, and then leaning on the people around you, because everyone that does this work, I would say for the most part, is wonderful. And people will help you more than you think. And I think being vulnerable and being okay with asking for help is a really big piece of it.

We're just about at the end of our time, Meg, as we do in our interviews with participants in our documentaries, I want to give you sort of an open platform. Is there anything that you expected me to ask you about or secretly wished that I would ask you about that we have not had a chance to cover today?

I guess I would say, not that I secretly thought you would ask me this, but something that I try to talk about a lot in this work is what it means to be a mom and be a mother. I think that in my early days, and part of the reason I left journalism, was I didn't feel it was sustainable to be able to have children and do the kind of work that we do. And I feel like having the company has really allowed me to balance that. So I guess this is just a little bit of support for those of you out there that want to have families. I think that there is a way to make this work sustainable and have other parts of your life awesome and thrive. And I think oftentimes we feel like it has to be one or the other, and I just don't think that's the case. And I think it's important for the people that are doing that to stand out as models and also talk about what's hard about it. It's not easily done, but I think that it's important for more of us to do it and share our strategies and share our challenges. Again, I think about many of the women I've met here in Los Angeles since starting the company, who have shared similar struggles, shared ideas for how to make it better. So I think that that has continued to be important to me as I've matured in my career.

Meg tell viewers, or listeners, or either where they can find Universe Creative and Impossible Town online.

Sure, we're still seeking distribution. Another way in which we're getting an education, difficult moment to do so. But again, we're pursuing those conversations. So Impossible Town is not yet widely distributed, but we're at film festivals all across the country, and if you really want to see it, email me and we'll talk about it. Universe Creative, we are online at universecreative.org. Also, we're really active on Instagram, so you can follow us at @StoriesforGood. And we're here in LA, so we'd love to have coffee.

Hit us up. Meg, thank you so much for being with us this morning. It was such a pleasure to speak with you, and I look forward to seeing you in the office in about 20 minutes.

Thank you for making it so easy, Scott. To be honest, I was really nervous. You make me more nervous than anyone else. I feel like I have a lot to prove, so you made it easy.

Well, we hold a high bar for each other and I'm grateful for that. Thank you.

Likewise.

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